Post by Salem6 on Sept 26, 2007 9:21:05 GMT
Full unabridged transcript from Trent Reznor interview
Metal Hammer exclusive: This interview was conducted in Glasgow, Scotland.
[This is the raw first draft transcript - there may be typos and abbreviations]
When did you first start writing the new record? And when did you decide not to carry any of the left over material forward from 'With Teeth'?
"When I finished With Teeth there were a handful of tracks that didn’t make the record. Tracks that I liked but in the context of the rest of the record it didn't fit in so… I got done with the record and went on tour, I found myself bored out of my mind, it’s fun to play a show, but the rest of the day if just waiting around for the show. So I started messing around with… if the 'limitation' is that all I have is a laptop in my hotel room…"
What were the new 'rules' that you often impose upon yourself when creating?
"I thought I'd try it out and see how it went, rather than looking at it as a shitty version of a studio, let's see what happens if you look at it as just trickery of the mind. I started got into some cool stuff, started happening, I wasn’t concerned about lyrics at that point, because when you have a couple hours here a couple hours on a bus ride there, you don’t have time to get into the mind state when I feel most lyrically creative, but it is a way to jot down bits of sketched of sounds. So it kind of became fun, so I started looking forward to the long drives, the day off, the few hours before a show. And that’s where… I knew when it came to the time to make the new record, to actually put it together, I knew I could reach back and grab some old stuff I had, but I didn’t need to. And I didn't really want to work on that stuff, because even though there’s a lot of ideas I didn’t finish on With Teeth, songs, I didn’t want to feel like I was going back in time."
Was it nice to have that safety net to have stuff left over?
"Yeah, it's nice to know that if the gun goes t the head, you can always reach for something. It’s not like I don’t like the stuff. I just don’t want to start where I failed last time – these songs I couldn’t finish. There came a point chronologically, where I got off tour in summer 06, and I didn’t really feel like taking a break, I just started by taking all the ideas I’d had on the road and started working with some lyrical ideas and conceptually the idea of the record came together in those three months or so. All the songs were written and I generated some new stuff around it. There came a point – in October – when the idea of doing this tour came up. And that meant I would have to done with the record by January, and it was about half written – musically: mostly, lyrically I hadn’t taken the ideas and turned them into songs yet. I was on a role, and for the first time ever I was in a position to bet on being done by a certain time, not just 'whenever it gets done it gets done'. So we booked the dates. But it didn’t feel like terror, it felt like it’s going the way I feel it’s going and maybe a little bit of pressure isn’t such a bad thing. I’m losing money on this tour, it wasn’t about making money, it was about setting a goal and achieving it. A plan and execute it."
It's great to see you in a smaller venue.
"Yeah it's fun playing those kind of shows. We’ve just got off a big tour playing arenas and amphitheatres in the States. They are what they are. Generally if I’m in a bigger place I'll tend to put a lot into the production… I always look at live shows from a fans perspective – and god, I went to a lot of shows when I was younger – and when my favourite band got big enough to play arenas it was always a bummer, because you always got a shitty seat. Sounds band, because it was a place set up for sports events. But with a smaller venue I can't bring in the projections and bigger scale things…
It's great that you're playing 4 nights at Brixton Academy, not one at Earls court.
"Is it? [laughs], tell me that on Sunday [after 4 nights]."
I’m surprised that you moved to LA, it seems the antithesis of what we know about Trent Reznor. Fake tits and celebrity etc
"Really, I moved there to be around my peers. To be honest. Part of what I can do when left to my own devises is isolate. Moving to New Orleans was a way to isolate myself, and I did that quite successfully for quite some time. But I realised that I needed a new view out of the window, and I needed to be around people who do what I do, maybe not forever… probably not forever. I didn’t go to LA for the culture [wry smile] or lack of… And what I’ve learned about LA, is that the fake tits and celebrity is all there and it’s the easiest thing to get sucked into, but it’s not all there is there. You don’t see me out… ever. Or pictures of me shopping or… and that’s not why I’m there and I’m repulsed by it to be quite frank, I don’t see myself staying there forever. But for me at the moment it’s a good place to be get do what I want to do. Trying to execute the whole Year Zero thing, would have been nearly impossible if I wasn’t in the same place as…"
There's so much going on surrounding the record and its concept, are ‘your peers’ the people helping you with it all – the USB keys, the websites, the spectrograph stuff?
"Year Zero has been a fairly collaborative in terms of… I did the record myself with my friend Atticus Ross, who co-produced it. I wasn’t writing with large groups of people, or have groups of people playing in the record. Then what we’re trying to do in terms of telling the story of Year Zero is more of a collaborative effort. I wrote the story with my friend… partner in that is Rob Sherry who’s been our graphic… art director for the last few years. We have very similar sensibilities, and we took the story and embellished it a little, and then came up with the ideas of ways to present it to people. There are things starting to happen on the web now. It’s been partially been revealed, it was all meant to set a place and an environment for the record to happen, when the next record… because it’s a two part thing, and we have some more surprises that might come out of that story wise, but what’s interesting in the way that we’ve chosen to reveal it is it’s something that – again as a fan – I would like to experience. It feels like a new way of story telling: it’s not really a book, it’s not really graphic, it’s not really a serialised novel, it’s not a comic, it’s not a movie, it kind of has all of those things. What I think is cool is that it relies on – hate to sound techno-geek – web 2.0, it’s a community-based experience. It’s not meant for one person to figure out. What I found rewarding – and now I completely sound like a nerd – when clues get revealed, to watch people are doing and saying, I know what the story is, I wrote it. It’s cool because what we’ve done is like… if there are a hundred chapters, what we’ve done is give them chapters 2, 8, 16 and 92, and it’s for people to try and piece things together strategically. Just chose the way to reveal it, it doesn’t make sense yet, but people will start to make the right connections… and that’s when the whole community feel comes into play. It’s like the music guy finds this clue and the graphics guy find this clue and… it’s cool to see. I don’t really know what the point of it is… I guess ultimately it’s just something I think will be cool to do, kind of dumb from a business perspective, I guess it has a function as a marketing tool for the record – although that’s not where it was conceived from, and I think it’s sparking some debate on topics that mean a lot to me, and matter a lot to me now, that’s why I wrote this record."
Having listened to it, it's not an overt message, or direct narrative. Was that conscious. Who is the 'I', the 'you', the 'them' – and does it change?
"When I started writing lyrics it just came from a journal, I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking, 'Am I writing as a character?' It's just me; it's just how I feel about something. I’m not pretending to be someone else, I didn’t really think about it. I don't come from a writing background; it's just what came out. I think over the years as I've matured, and gotten older, with this record it was a conscious decision not to let it just come straight out of me. I was writing fiction for the first time, clearly a fiction, and I wanted to… I wrote this record first, planning out what this world was, what the climate was, what was happening, what the pieces of the puzzle politically. Then I really started to inhabit it, and eventually started thinking ‘ok, what if I was in this world and I was this person what would I write about?'"
William Burroughs says that even fiction is autobiographical because you are always you, you write your own thoughts and your own experiences. So 'Year Zero' will still be about you. How much personal allegory and parallel do you think is subconsciously there in Year Zero? It's still a little window into Trent's mind...
"I think for anything to be believable it has to have 'you' in it. To speak with any sort of authority, believability, and conviction, that’s a part of how you feel about [the subject matter] all those characters that I’m writing about, have elements of what I feel, and others have things I project and I imagine the fucking people that are like that."
People you know...
"Yeah, they’re in there. What I certainly didn’t want to do is to make a record about how much George Bush is an asshole."
We've got Al Jourgensen to do that.
"Yeah, and he did… nothing against old Al… that's what I don't want to do. I’m glad someone is doing it. Neil Young is doing the same thing. I think that you immediately polarize people, and you’re not going to ultimately change anyone's mind. Because before I listened to the Neil Young record, I know where I stand, and I agree with him, I don’t think the guy who loves George Bush is going to listen to that and feel differently – he’s probably going to feel more polarised. Certainly every aspect of year Zero is happening right now. It’s been more of an experiment for me and it’s provided me with something that's been rewarding for me to do."
In a recent interview you said: 'When I did With Teeth I didn’t make myself any rules, I was just hoping that I could do it at all." You mentioned that you had a confidence on this record that you didn’t have for With Teeth, how has that manifested?
"I have to look at where my life was at the time – not that it was that long ago – but coming out of a period of inactivity, and a big life change – getting sober – and the humility that comes with that: I was a fuck up, and I fucked a lot of shit up, and... including maybe my career, or my ability to use […] my art, my gift... that I've been blessed with. So it was kind of… fear was entangled in the whole writing process of With Teeth, but from the day it started this new record it was a fairly easy process, it wasn't as painful... I was going at it with… it was like a hot stove, I didn’t want to touch it [gestures] there was a bit of a 'kid gloves' feel to that record, and a I kind of 'feeling around in the dark to see what I found exciting to me musically', but with this record it was... the tour was going well, I felt better about things, I realised the mistakes I made on With Teeth."
You made mistakes on With Teeth?
"Yeah I made some mistakes on With Teeth... I look at it now as things I wouldn’t do again. I got rid of a manager that had been round me for a long time, and I had a new group of people, I had a new fresh start with the record label I'd been with forever, and I let a few too many people in the room when I was... When it wasn’t quite finished, to get opinions and I’ve never done that. Never. Like, I would never have played it for as many people as I did before it was finished, to get their opinion. Now I think there's good that can come from that – and good did come from that, but also some bad. The bad was that I wasn’t in a confident enough place to say – strongly but I should have – 'yeah, but I disagree, thanks for your opinion', 'I've considered, however, this is what I'm going to do'. And I don't want to officially say that I felt compromised on that record, because ultimately whatever I did on that record was of my own making and my own choice, but this time around I didn’t let anybody in the room. And that has dangers too: sometimes you can have your head way up your ass and not realise before it’s too late. But I felt very strongly about the whole process of this record. I didn't care if it had singles on it, or got played on the radio; I don’t care about MTV... at all. I don'tare about how many records I sell – I mean I hope people like the record and I hope people get the record, but I'm not doing this just to make a product that fits into a mould that a record label would like to make, there's enough people doing that. I don't feel like doing it [laughs] so I approached the whole thing with a kind of ‘fuck it, I’m going to do what I think is cool'. And some of it was... every time I sat down I was concerned about someone preaching to me, 'it has to have a strong melody, it has to have a bridge and...' fuck all that. It has that button and it makes a noise that sounds cool to me. Nothing wrong with that."
Can you make the same record in those three different mental places?
"I would hope not [smiles] I think those records [The Fragile, With Teeth] reflect… when I listen to them I'm seeing them differently to the way you would because I was there, I think about when I made it, how I made it and the feelings I had. And there couldn’t be two more disparate places than The Fragile and 'Year Zero'. Now, do I think a track of 'Year Zero' could wind up on 'The Fragile'? Maybe. But not in the way they were put together, not in the mindset. Like, I just try to make as true a record to who I am at that time. I could try and sound like The Clash, and maybe I could fool you, but it wouldn't be real. I like the Clash a lot, but it's not who I am."
What does isolation do for you?
"I have a place in LA that's right up on a hill so I get to see the whole city. It's a very urban setting; it feels like you’re sitting on top of a giant city. I'd just finished the tour and I was setting up the house and a water piper broke and fucked it all up, so trying to turn it into a positive thing, I rented a place for a few months, while they fixed the house up. And it kind of acted as a..."
A good excuse...
"Yeah, when people think about Malibu, and I did too – I thought it was just the beach and Bay Watch and shit like that – and I guess that's there – but there's all these canyons and stuff. When I first drove to the place I couldn’t even find the fucking place. It's an hour outside of LA down a dead end track, deer in the back yard, giant spiders, kind of creepy, it felt like you’re the only person around."
How did that affect the writing and mind set?
"For me it won’t mean I make a country record because I'm out there… but what it does is it gave me some piece of mind, and got me a way from the distractions of… you know, you’re in your house and the phone rings, and people know where you are and you end up getting fucking nothing done. It was a nice place to go, it was serene, I took my dogs, and disappear into the woodwork for a while. The ultimate state for me is when there’s no phone, when I wake up I can immediately start working on something, if I need to leave the house I can, long walks in the woods, I’ll probably end up Unabomber style living out in the woods..."
How do you feel about how 'With Teeth' was criticised? Too pop/easy?
"I think it was fair. When I hear it I don’t hear it as a Fall Out Boy record or anything that shitty, I don't think that it was my most daring artistic experiment by any mean but I didn’t go into it trying to do that. The idea of trying to write concise songs was a challenge, especially after 'The Fragile', having immersed myself in something like The Fragile I wanted to make something song based. At the moment it's not the favourite album I’ve done. But I don’t dislike it, [falters] I don’t think this record is like that. I don’t know... at the time it felt like the right thing to do."
And you're not known for being fussed about critics. It's not like you pore over the NME to see how many stars you get in a review right?
"[smiles] Well see, it's funny because I’ve had both sides of the coin, in the states it was all great reviews, great reviews, and then in the era of blogging 'With Teeth' era, I assume most people blogging are in their 20s, it's weird to think about how long I've been around, It's hard to see my self accurately as what I'm perceived as. I know what I like to think of myself as, but whether that's what I am received as something else. If you want to not like it... I tell you what gets under my skin, is that sometimes I read a review where I don’t think they've even heard the record, 'it's Nine Inch Nails, we don't like it, go...' It's like I fucked his girlfriend, or something's happened that... 'We've decided we don't like these guys so rather than give them a shot...' at the same time I've gotten positive reviews that way. It's what they are, the serve a purpose, who gives a fuck..."
If you are told someone is a genius, you will assume that if you don’t get it, it’s your fault. Do you think that you have that luxury, that people will not only persevere with a NIN record, but that people will think it’s their fault if they don’t like it?
"Tough question. It's like... here's how I feel in my head, I don’t know how accurate this is [to real life], when... I know there’s a faction of people that like what I do, and are interested in what I do, and that gives me a confidence to... as much as I want to say I never consider what people think, of course I do, I kind say that doesn't effect me, in fact it’s changed my life. I'm here! So it does play a role, as for how much of a role, I think it's important to keep it in check. I always want to feel primarily that I’m satisfying what I think is the best work I can do. And I hope you like it. But I'm catering for people... 'Because I think you'll like this'. That's the mark of death in any artist; once they start pandering to what they think fans like about them, that's when you always you see bands go to shit. Because then it's not really true anymore – the band are thinking, 'you know what, I'm glad I got this house because they liked the song I wrote. I'll write one just like it because I'd like a pool'. Where I do think it's nice to... I hope people will give it a chance because they believe in what I'm doing. People that have read that I'm smart of good at something, then maybe try this thing out that you may not give a band you've never heard of before. I remember, I think it was Clive Barker saying, there’s a line that I try to draw."
Is the 'concept' because – now that you're clean/sober – there are no demons on your doorstep; there’s no pain anymore? Will you tap old pain to get that musical and lyrical darkness? Is there always something there to write about? Like Korn.
"I hope I never fall into – this is a good question because, erm, [long pause] let me just think about this for a sec... [long pause] I loved Kiss growing up, at puberty they were there to rescue me from a life of athleticism – failed athleticism [laughs] But I would hope that I never become Gene Simmons, where as an X-year old man I’m singing about making out with chicks in the back of a car, you know what I mean, because the kids want that. Nothing wrong with him doing it, that’s not how I see my role as an artist. I don’t mind that that’s how he sees his role, obviously he’s successful, and that might be what he’s… I’m sure it is what he wants to do. Erm, [pause] I would never want to think that everyone expect NIN to sound like 'this', 'I don't give a fuck now... but I don't want to let the kids down' [pause] I'm debating right now what battles I could start by what I could say right now... [looong pause] I'll just keep my mouth shut."
Really?
“I know you’re baiting me... I know how Korn did their last record."
With Atticus Ross...
“Not the parts that Atticus did. I know where a lot of his lyrics came from, because he didn't write them. When the day comes that I have to hire the flavour of the day to write my records for me so I can sound like what y records used to sound like so I can make money... stick a fork in me... honestly... and that's... I don't mean to sound like I’m on a high horse here but when it gets to that state, that’s absolutely not what I'm about. From principle. I'll walk the highway before I start doing that shit, because music means a lot to me, and the reason for doing it means a lot to me, and whether you like NIN or not, or you hate this record or loved that record, I can assure you that I did it for the right reasons: I did it because it means more to me than anything else in my life. And I'll never put making money ahead of that. More than any other thing ever, I can sleep well at night – when I can sleep – knowing that I always kept that pure. My life I fucked up, my friendships and relationships I fucked up, my health I’ve fucked up, but I never wanted to abuse music like that. Does that answer your question?
Kind of. You seem happier than when we last spoke, and Year Zero is a – not happier per se – but less dark album. It's not 'The Downward Spiral'.
"Yes, and I don't have the darkness. I'm not ready to jump out that window, and a few years ago I was. And when I wrote the Downward Spiral those demons were closing in on me. And when I wrote 'Broken' I thought I could never make music again because I'd signed a shitty record contract, and those records are accurate pictures of where I was right then. In The Fragile I was trying to fight my way out of addiction, and lying to myself about the whole thing. Right now I haven't found out the answers to everything but I'm not at war with myself as much as I was. And now it’s time to go to war against the outside world [laughs]. All my battles were fought inside my skull and now the world doesn’t revolve around me, I’m not the epicentre of all life in the universe."
Was that the 'small addict world' epiphany that you had when you got clean. That your problems weren't just what you could see and touch, but things in the wide world?
"It was an epiphany of sorts and it revolves around sobriety – and not trying to sound like the [Alcoholics Anonymous] guys – quite frankly you realise how selfish addicts are. You feel like you're problems are the biggest problems in the world, and if you’re around me you're part of my problem. It comes down – in the last few years I've also realised that I’ve finally crossed that threshold that it’s better to give than receive. Christmas time: 'oh well give me something'. [gestures, grabbing] And truly doing service means more to me than receiving, it all ties in to... one of the main purposes of this record was to shed some light on [stops himself] maybe calling some attention to something that needs attention to, and I hope it’s not in a preachy way, and hopefully the way the whole concept is set up it’s subversive enough that some people will end up thinking about things in a way they hadn’t before. I’m not saying I can change the world… I feel it's my duty as a human and as a citizen to do something, because I can. And it’s interesting to me and it's challenging. Tomorrow I might feel completely different, but right now it means a lot to me. I couldn’t write another 'Downward Spiral' because that would be lying."
You say 'now' but does that mean 'ever again'?
"I could walk out of here, go get a drink and within a week I could be [pensive look] dead, or I could... who knows what? I’m not interested in doing that [chuckles]."
Do you feel that this is then a pivotal time for NIN’s future music, that because your mindset has changed, the music will?
"I'd like to say that I'm on a path of healthiness, and I can say that the process of working on this record has been more rewarding than any other thing. Especially the ancillary parts of it, the writing has really got me excited about moving into some other things, although the music will always be the most important thing, but… after doing it for 15 years – or however long it’s been, as NIN – it’s exciting to me to try and bend the rules more than I’m allowed to do."
Metal Hammer exclusive: This interview was conducted in Glasgow, Scotland.
[This is the raw first draft transcript - there may be typos and abbreviations]
When did you first start writing the new record? And when did you decide not to carry any of the left over material forward from 'With Teeth'?
"When I finished With Teeth there were a handful of tracks that didn’t make the record. Tracks that I liked but in the context of the rest of the record it didn't fit in so… I got done with the record and went on tour, I found myself bored out of my mind, it’s fun to play a show, but the rest of the day if just waiting around for the show. So I started messing around with… if the 'limitation' is that all I have is a laptop in my hotel room…"
What were the new 'rules' that you often impose upon yourself when creating?
"I thought I'd try it out and see how it went, rather than looking at it as a shitty version of a studio, let's see what happens if you look at it as just trickery of the mind. I started got into some cool stuff, started happening, I wasn’t concerned about lyrics at that point, because when you have a couple hours here a couple hours on a bus ride there, you don’t have time to get into the mind state when I feel most lyrically creative, but it is a way to jot down bits of sketched of sounds. So it kind of became fun, so I started looking forward to the long drives, the day off, the few hours before a show. And that’s where… I knew when it came to the time to make the new record, to actually put it together, I knew I could reach back and grab some old stuff I had, but I didn’t need to. And I didn't really want to work on that stuff, because even though there’s a lot of ideas I didn’t finish on With Teeth, songs, I didn’t want to feel like I was going back in time."
Was it nice to have that safety net to have stuff left over?
"Yeah, it's nice to know that if the gun goes t the head, you can always reach for something. It’s not like I don’t like the stuff. I just don’t want to start where I failed last time – these songs I couldn’t finish. There came a point chronologically, where I got off tour in summer 06, and I didn’t really feel like taking a break, I just started by taking all the ideas I’d had on the road and started working with some lyrical ideas and conceptually the idea of the record came together in those three months or so. All the songs were written and I generated some new stuff around it. There came a point – in October – when the idea of doing this tour came up. And that meant I would have to done with the record by January, and it was about half written – musically: mostly, lyrically I hadn’t taken the ideas and turned them into songs yet. I was on a role, and for the first time ever I was in a position to bet on being done by a certain time, not just 'whenever it gets done it gets done'. So we booked the dates. But it didn’t feel like terror, it felt like it’s going the way I feel it’s going and maybe a little bit of pressure isn’t such a bad thing. I’m losing money on this tour, it wasn’t about making money, it was about setting a goal and achieving it. A plan and execute it."
It's great to see you in a smaller venue.
"Yeah it's fun playing those kind of shows. We’ve just got off a big tour playing arenas and amphitheatres in the States. They are what they are. Generally if I’m in a bigger place I'll tend to put a lot into the production… I always look at live shows from a fans perspective – and god, I went to a lot of shows when I was younger – and when my favourite band got big enough to play arenas it was always a bummer, because you always got a shitty seat. Sounds band, because it was a place set up for sports events. But with a smaller venue I can't bring in the projections and bigger scale things…
It's great that you're playing 4 nights at Brixton Academy, not one at Earls court.
"Is it? [laughs], tell me that on Sunday [after 4 nights]."
I’m surprised that you moved to LA, it seems the antithesis of what we know about Trent Reznor. Fake tits and celebrity etc
"Really, I moved there to be around my peers. To be honest. Part of what I can do when left to my own devises is isolate. Moving to New Orleans was a way to isolate myself, and I did that quite successfully for quite some time. But I realised that I needed a new view out of the window, and I needed to be around people who do what I do, maybe not forever… probably not forever. I didn’t go to LA for the culture [wry smile] or lack of… And what I’ve learned about LA, is that the fake tits and celebrity is all there and it’s the easiest thing to get sucked into, but it’s not all there is there. You don’t see me out… ever. Or pictures of me shopping or… and that’s not why I’m there and I’m repulsed by it to be quite frank, I don’t see myself staying there forever. But for me at the moment it’s a good place to be get do what I want to do. Trying to execute the whole Year Zero thing, would have been nearly impossible if I wasn’t in the same place as…"
There's so much going on surrounding the record and its concept, are ‘your peers’ the people helping you with it all – the USB keys, the websites, the spectrograph stuff?
"Year Zero has been a fairly collaborative in terms of… I did the record myself with my friend Atticus Ross, who co-produced it. I wasn’t writing with large groups of people, or have groups of people playing in the record. Then what we’re trying to do in terms of telling the story of Year Zero is more of a collaborative effort. I wrote the story with my friend… partner in that is Rob Sherry who’s been our graphic… art director for the last few years. We have very similar sensibilities, and we took the story and embellished it a little, and then came up with the ideas of ways to present it to people. There are things starting to happen on the web now. It’s been partially been revealed, it was all meant to set a place and an environment for the record to happen, when the next record… because it’s a two part thing, and we have some more surprises that might come out of that story wise, but what’s interesting in the way that we’ve chosen to reveal it is it’s something that – again as a fan – I would like to experience. It feels like a new way of story telling: it’s not really a book, it’s not really graphic, it’s not really a serialised novel, it’s not a comic, it’s not a movie, it kind of has all of those things. What I think is cool is that it relies on – hate to sound techno-geek – web 2.0, it’s a community-based experience. It’s not meant for one person to figure out. What I found rewarding – and now I completely sound like a nerd – when clues get revealed, to watch people are doing and saying, I know what the story is, I wrote it. It’s cool because what we’ve done is like… if there are a hundred chapters, what we’ve done is give them chapters 2, 8, 16 and 92, and it’s for people to try and piece things together strategically. Just chose the way to reveal it, it doesn’t make sense yet, but people will start to make the right connections… and that’s when the whole community feel comes into play. It’s like the music guy finds this clue and the graphics guy find this clue and… it’s cool to see. I don’t really know what the point of it is… I guess ultimately it’s just something I think will be cool to do, kind of dumb from a business perspective, I guess it has a function as a marketing tool for the record – although that’s not where it was conceived from, and I think it’s sparking some debate on topics that mean a lot to me, and matter a lot to me now, that’s why I wrote this record."
Having listened to it, it's not an overt message, or direct narrative. Was that conscious. Who is the 'I', the 'you', the 'them' – and does it change?
"When I started writing lyrics it just came from a journal, I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking, 'Am I writing as a character?' It's just me; it's just how I feel about something. I’m not pretending to be someone else, I didn’t really think about it. I don't come from a writing background; it's just what came out. I think over the years as I've matured, and gotten older, with this record it was a conscious decision not to let it just come straight out of me. I was writing fiction for the first time, clearly a fiction, and I wanted to… I wrote this record first, planning out what this world was, what the climate was, what was happening, what the pieces of the puzzle politically. Then I really started to inhabit it, and eventually started thinking ‘ok, what if I was in this world and I was this person what would I write about?'"
William Burroughs says that even fiction is autobiographical because you are always you, you write your own thoughts and your own experiences. So 'Year Zero' will still be about you. How much personal allegory and parallel do you think is subconsciously there in Year Zero? It's still a little window into Trent's mind...
"I think for anything to be believable it has to have 'you' in it. To speak with any sort of authority, believability, and conviction, that’s a part of how you feel about [the subject matter] all those characters that I’m writing about, have elements of what I feel, and others have things I project and I imagine the fucking people that are like that."
People you know...
"Yeah, they’re in there. What I certainly didn’t want to do is to make a record about how much George Bush is an asshole."
We've got Al Jourgensen to do that.
"Yeah, and he did… nothing against old Al… that's what I don't want to do. I’m glad someone is doing it. Neil Young is doing the same thing. I think that you immediately polarize people, and you’re not going to ultimately change anyone's mind. Because before I listened to the Neil Young record, I know where I stand, and I agree with him, I don’t think the guy who loves George Bush is going to listen to that and feel differently – he’s probably going to feel more polarised. Certainly every aspect of year Zero is happening right now. It’s been more of an experiment for me and it’s provided me with something that's been rewarding for me to do."
In a recent interview you said: 'When I did With Teeth I didn’t make myself any rules, I was just hoping that I could do it at all." You mentioned that you had a confidence on this record that you didn’t have for With Teeth, how has that manifested?
"I have to look at where my life was at the time – not that it was that long ago – but coming out of a period of inactivity, and a big life change – getting sober – and the humility that comes with that: I was a fuck up, and I fucked a lot of shit up, and... including maybe my career, or my ability to use […] my art, my gift... that I've been blessed with. So it was kind of… fear was entangled in the whole writing process of With Teeth, but from the day it started this new record it was a fairly easy process, it wasn't as painful... I was going at it with… it was like a hot stove, I didn’t want to touch it [gestures] there was a bit of a 'kid gloves' feel to that record, and a I kind of 'feeling around in the dark to see what I found exciting to me musically', but with this record it was... the tour was going well, I felt better about things, I realised the mistakes I made on With Teeth."
You made mistakes on With Teeth?
"Yeah I made some mistakes on With Teeth... I look at it now as things I wouldn’t do again. I got rid of a manager that had been round me for a long time, and I had a new group of people, I had a new fresh start with the record label I'd been with forever, and I let a few too many people in the room when I was... When it wasn’t quite finished, to get opinions and I’ve never done that. Never. Like, I would never have played it for as many people as I did before it was finished, to get their opinion. Now I think there's good that can come from that – and good did come from that, but also some bad. The bad was that I wasn’t in a confident enough place to say – strongly but I should have – 'yeah, but I disagree, thanks for your opinion', 'I've considered, however, this is what I'm going to do'. And I don't want to officially say that I felt compromised on that record, because ultimately whatever I did on that record was of my own making and my own choice, but this time around I didn’t let anybody in the room. And that has dangers too: sometimes you can have your head way up your ass and not realise before it’s too late. But I felt very strongly about the whole process of this record. I didn't care if it had singles on it, or got played on the radio; I don’t care about MTV... at all. I don'tare about how many records I sell – I mean I hope people like the record and I hope people get the record, but I'm not doing this just to make a product that fits into a mould that a record label would like to make, there's enough people doing that. I don't feel like doing it [laughs] so I approached the whole thing with a kind of ‘fuck it, I’m going to do what I think is cool'. And some of it was... every time I sat down I was concerned about someone preaching to me, 'it has to have a strong melody, it has to have a bridge and...' fuck all that. It has that button and it makes a noise that sounds cool to me. Nothing wrong with that."
Can you make the same record in those three different mental places?
"I would hope not [smiles] I think those records [The Fragile, With Teeth] reflect… when I listen to them I'm seeing them differently to the way you would because I was there, I think about when I made it, how I made it and the feelings I had. And there couldn’t be two more disparate places than The Fragile and 'Year Zero'. Now, do I think a track of 'Year Zero' could wind up on 'The Fragile'? Maybe. But not in the way they were put together, not in the mindset. Like, I just try to make as true a record to who I am at that time. I could try and sound like The Clash, and maybe I could fool you, but it wouldn't be real. I like the Clash a lot, but it's not who I am."
What does isolation do for you?
"I have a place in LA that's right up on a hill so I get to see the whole city. It's a very urban setting; it feels like you’re sitting on top of a giant city. I'd just finished the tour and I was setting up the house and a water piper broke and fucked it all up, so trying to turn it into a positive thing, I rented a place for a few months, while they fixed the house up. And it kind of acted as a..."
A good excuse...
"Yeah, when people think about Malibu, and I did too – I thought it was just the beach and Bay Watch and shit like that – and I guess that's there – but there's all these canyons and stuff. When I first drove to the place I couldn’t even find the fucking place. It's an hour outside of LA down a dead end track, deer in the back yard, giant spiders, kind of creepy, it felt like you’re the only person around."
How did that affect the writing and mind set?
"For me it won’t mean I make a country record because I'm out there… but what it does is it gave me some piece of mind, and got me a way from the distractions of… you know, you’re in your house and the phone rings, and people know where you are and you end up getting fucking nothing done. It was a nice place to go, it was serene, I took my dogs, and disappear into the woodwork for a while. The ultimate state for me is when there’s no phone, when I wake up I can immediately start working on something, if I need to leave the house I can, long walks in the woods, I’ll probably end up Unabomber style living out in the woods..."
How do you feel about how 'With Teeth' was criticised? Too pop/easy?
"I think it was fair. When I hear it I don’t hear it as a Fall Out Boy record or anything that shitty, I don't think that it was my most daring artistic experiment by any mean but I didn’t go into it trying to do that. The idea of trying to write concise songs was a challenge, especially after 'The Fragile', having immersed myself in something like The Fragile I wanted to make something song based. At the moment it's not the favourite album I’ve done. But I don’t dislike it, [falters] I don’t think this record is like that. I don’t know... at the time it felt like the right thing to do."
And you're not known for being fussed about critics. It's not like you pore over the NME to see how many stars you get in a review right?
"[smiles] Well see, it's funny because I’ve had both sides of the coin, in the states it was all great reviews, great reviews, and then in the era of blogging 'With Teeth' era, I assume most people blogging are in their 20s, it's weird to think about how long I've been around, It's hard to see my self accurately as what I'm perceived as. I know what I like to think of myself as, but whether that's what I am received as something else. If you want to not like it... I tell you what gets under my skin, is that sometimes I read a review where I don’t think they've even heard the record, 'it's Nine Inch Nails, we don't like it, go...' It's like I fucked his girlfriend, or something's happened that... 'We've decided we don't like these guys so rather than give them a shot...' at the same time I've gotten positive reviews that way. It's what they are, the serve a purpose, who gives a fuck..."
If you are told someone is a genius, you will assume that if you don’t get it, it’s your fault. Do you think that you have that luxury, that people will not only persevere with a NIN record, but that people will think it’s their fault if they don’t like it?
"Tough question. It's like... here's how I feel in my head, I don’t know how accurate this is [to real life], when... I know there’s a faction of people that like what I do, and are interested in what I do, and that gives me a confidence to... as much as I want to say I never consider what people think, of course I do, I kind say that doesn't effect me, in fact it’s changed my life. I'm here! So it does play a role, as for how much of a role, I think it's important to keep it in check. I always want to feel primarily that I’m satisfying what I think is the best work I can do. And I hope you like it. But I'm catering for people... 'Because I think you'll like this'. That's the mark of death in any artist; once they start pandering to what they think fans like about them, that's when you always you see bands go to shit. Because then it's not really true anymore – the band are thinking, 'you know what, I'm glad I got this house because they liked the song I wrote. I'll write one just like it because I'd like a pool'. Where I do think it's nice to... I hope people will give it a chance because they believe in what I'm doing. People that have read that I'm smart of good at something, then maybe try this thing out that you may not give a band you've never heard of before. I remember, I think it was Clive Barker saying, there’s a line that I try to draw."
Is the 'concept' because – now that you're clean/sober – there are no demons on your doorstep; there’s no pain anymore? Will you tap old pain to get that musical and lyrical darkness? Is there always something there to write about? Like Korn.
"I hope I never fall into – this is a good question because, erm, [long pause] let me just think about this for a sec... [long pause] I loved Kiss growing up, at puberty they were there to rescue me from a life of athleticism – failed athleticism [laughs] But I would hope that I never become Gene Simmons, where as an X-year old man I’m singing about making out with chicks in the back of a car, you know what I mean, because the kids want that. Nothing wrong with him doing it, that’s not how I see my role as an artist. I don’t mind that that’s how he sees his role, obviously he’s successful, and that might be what he’s… I’m sure it is what he wants to do. Erm, [pause] I would never want to think that everyone expect NIN to sound like 'this', 'I don't give a fuck now... but I don't want to let the kids down' [pause] I'm debating right now what battles I could start by what I could say right now... [looong pause] I'll just keep my mouth shut."
Really?
“I know you’re baiting me... I know how Korn did their last record."
With Atticus Ross...
“Not the parts that Atticus did. I know where a lot of his lyrics came from, because he didn't write them. When the day comes that I have to hire the flavour of the day to write my records for me so I can sound like what y records used to sound like so I can make money... stick a fork in me... honestly... and that's... I don't mean to sound like I’m on a high horse here but when it gets to that state, that’s absolutely not what I'm about. From principle. I'll walk the highway before I start doing that shit, because music means a lot to me, and the reason for doing it means a lot to me, and whether you like NIN or not, or you hate this record or loved that record, I can assure you that I did it for the right reasons: I did it because it means more to me than anything else in my life. And I'll never put making money ahead of that. More than any other thing ever, I can sleep well at night – when I can sleep – knowing that I always kept that pure. My life I fucked up, my friendships and relationships I fucked up, my health I’ve fucked up, but I never wanted to abuse music like that. Does that answer your question?
Kind of. You seem happier than when we last spoke, and Year Zero is a – not happier per se – but less dark album. It's not 'The Downward Spiral'.
"Yes, and I don't have the darkness. I'm not ready to jump out that window, and a few years ago I was. And when I wrote the Downward Spiral those demons were closing in on me. And when I wrote 'Broken' I thought I could never make music again because I'd signed a shitty record contract, and those records are accurate pictures of where I was right then. In The Fragile I was trying to fight my way out of addiction, and lying to myself about the whole thing. Right now I haven't found out the answers to everything but I'm not at war with myself as much as I was. And now it’s time to go to war against the outside world [laughs]. All my battles were fought inside my skull and now the world doesn’t revolve around me, I’m not the epicentre of all life in the universe."
Was that the 'small addict world' epiphany that you had when you got clean. That your problems weren't just what you could see and touch, but things in the wide world?
"It was an epiphany of sorts and it revolves around sobriety – and not trying to sound like the [Alcoholics Anonymous] guys – quite frankly you realise how selfish addicts are. You feel like you're problems are the biggest problems in the world, and if you’re around me you're part of my problem. It comes down – in the last few years I've also realised that I’ve finally crossed that threshold that it’s better to give than receive. Christmas time: 'oh well give me something'. [gestures, grabbing] And truly doing service means more to me than receiving, it all ties in to... one of the main purposes of this record was to shed some light on [stops himself] maybe calling some attention to something that needs attention to, and I hope it’s not in a preachy way, and hopefully the way the whole concept is set up it’s subversive enough that some people will end up thinking about things in a way they hadn’t before. I’m not saying I can change the world… I feel it's my duty as a human and as a citizen to do something, because I can. And it’s interesting to me and it's challenging. Tomorrow I might feel completely different, but right now it means a lot to me. I couldn’t write another 'Downward Spiral' because that would be lying."
You say 'now' but does that mean 'ever again'?
"I could walk out of here, go get a drink and within a week I could be [pensive look] dead, or I could... who knows what? I’m not interested in doing that [chuckles]."
Do you feel that this is then a pivotal time for NIN’s future music, that because your mindset has changed, the music will?
"I'd like to say that I'm on a path of healthiness, and I can say that the process of working on this record has been more rewarding than any other thing. Especially the ancillary parts of it, the writing has really got me excited about moving into some other things, although the music will always be the most important thing, but… after doing it for 15 years – or however long it’s been, as NIN – it’s exciting to me to try and bend the rules more than I’m allowed to do."